Misidentified Thayer's Gull
Larry Manfredi's comments on the misidentified
Thayer's Gull that was seen on the Nov 17 Smyrna Dunes trip
When I first looked at Bob Wallace's photographs I thought to myself ok,
which one is the bird? With all due respect to all that have seen the
Thayer's Gull, I can't see calling it anything other than a female Herring
Gull. The iris is bright yellow on the bird that was photographed with no
difference from the bird next to it. Thayer's Gulls almost always have a
dark eye! The primaries on the bird photographed don't look quite right for
a Thayer's, perhaps the bird molted some feathers and new ones are coming
in? The field marks described do not seem to add up to make this bird a
Thayer's Gull at least to me. Female Herring Gulls are always smaller and
more petite than males. Thayer's Gulls always have a gentler less harsh
look than Herring Gulls and all other large gulls. These are just some of
my observations; perhaps others will have something else to add.
Larry Manfredi
Homestead, FL.
Besides what Larry said the wing pattern is wrong which is what I told people at the festival. Also the leg color is wrong!
Murray Gardler
Brooksvile, FL
Subject: Re: Check this other photo.
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004
From: Wayne Petersen
To: Murray Gardler"
Hi Murray,
Well, it's a gull! Always tough, as I indicated last night on the phone, but my gut impression suggests that this is probably not a Thayer's Gull. The mantle seems to similar in shade to the Herring Gull in the foreground, the leg color is similar to the Herrings in the picture, the primaries are really black, the apical spots on the primaries do not appear to be terribly extensive, and the eye appears quite yellow. The bird is obviously small (no doubt a female, as you mentioned); however the bill and overall contour of the bird are more suggestive of a Herring Gull to me than that of a Thayer's Gull.
Needless to say, without seeing the bird, especially the details of its primary pattern from above and below, it's really hard to speak with certainty; however, if you put a gun to my head, I think I'd go with something other than Thayer's.
Wayne R. Petersen
Swarovski Birding
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004
From: Murray Gardler
To: LaurileeThompson
Subject: Thayer's Gull; Smyrna Dunes Park
There is a great deal of difficulty in the identification of gulls therefore the possibility of a misidentification of such closely related gulls such as Herring and Thayers is very easily done.
With that being said the expert's opinions state that the Smyrna Dunes Park gull is a female (runt) Herring Gull in the process of molt, not a Thayer's Gull.
Several at the festival felt it was not a Thayers but just to be sure Bob Wallace sent pictures to many observers for their opinions. Below, from Martin Reid in Texas, are the most comprehensive comments relating to the identification of the gull in question.
Wayne Petersen felt it was not a Thayer's Gull as did Larry Manfredi, Lyn Atherton, Kevin Karlson and Murray Gardler
" The gull is not a Thayer's, but is a runt HERG:
The wings appear to have little black in them because the outermost two primaries are still growing and are not visible; P10 has not yet emerged from behind the primary coverts, and P9 is only a little way out. if you look at the standing bird, there are only 3 primary tips visible - that's P6, P7, and P8 (on all but a couple of smaller forms, for large gulls the first fully visible P-tip is that of P6; often P10 is = or less than P9 when fully grown, so the normal number of P-tips is 4; P6 -P9.) Add to this the very pale eye (rare in THGU) and apparent yellow-orange orbital eyering (THGU is dark purplish or reddish-purple; HERG ranges from yellow thru orange to orangy-red.), plus stout bill and typical HERG winter head streaking (THGU usually has more of a hooded effect, with more diffuse individual markings.)
I was fooled by a bird like this in flight two weeks ago in Corpus....
Cheers, Martin
Murray Gardler
11/26/2004
Hi Laurilee,
I don't know if you've seen the running dialog on the identification of the Thayer's Gull we thought we had on the Thursday Smyrna Dunes trip. After a number of people have weighed in on the subject, all of them with far more experience with the bird than I, it appears that what we had was a female, adult Herring Gull. Here's what Wes wrote yesterday:
Having limited experience with Thayers Gulls, I wasn't sure of the ID, but I did feel sure that we had found the bird in question. After we returned to the festival I showed Bob's photos to several people who have extensive experience with the species. They were all sure that the bird is NOT what we would like it to be. They all felt quite sure that it is a small Herring Gull. I thought the size was good for Thayers, but I did wonder about the lack of brightness in the pink leg color. Even in winter I thought that it should have been more intense, but you know how variable soft part colors can be. I didn't think the head shape looked bad for Thayers, & the amount of black in the upper & under wing looks OK too. I didn't even think about the eye color. The people I talked with didn't like the head shape, & although the amount of black in the primaries was not bad it wasn't exactly where it's supposed to be. As Ellen Variz said the other day, winter Thayers eyes can be pale but not yellow. If I had not left the festival early I would have passed this info on to David Hartgrove. So, the plot thins out again.
Wes Biggs
So we'll have to take it off the Festival check list and I'll have to keep looking for this life bird.
David Hartgrove
Conservation Chair,
Halifax River Audubon
Daytona Beach, FL
